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Michael,

I've used only ebony for fingerboards as well. Me, I wasn't going to argue with Colin.

I've been very happy with my ebony-bedecked guitars, especially my most recent build -- a 10-string classical that has a slab of ebony more than twice as wide as a typical steel string guitar's fingerboard. The guitar sounds great and has lots of volume and projection.

I do know that some classical builders do not like to use ebony for bridges, though. Reason? It kills the sound. Or so they claim. I suspect this might be because of ebony's density. Or maybe it's internal damping is too high? I've run some density measurments on various hardwoods, and I've found that I have some cocobola that is almost as dense as ebony. So, I wonder if builders who avoid ebony for bridges feel the same way about cocobola.

Best,

Michael

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As Mario always, and quite correctly says, it's all about details.

I'm a professional scientist I don't do "untested theory", using "ebony exclusively", that could be called untested theory! David Hume, the resident Luthier at the Royal College of Music here is always coming over to my faculty to use my test equipment, he is a man of incredible skills and is the only man I know who regularly repairs instuments by Stradivarius and the other great Cremonese builders, as well as the whole raft of great classical guitar builders. Some time ago we ran some tests on sound transmission through a range of luthery woods. The worst for sound dampening by far, of the common hardwoods, was ebony. Why anyone would use it for bridges is beyond my comprehension. And as far as fingerboards, where admittedly it makes less difference, if you don't need that plain black appearance, why risk any possibility of sound dampening? Tradition maybe?

The difference may not be so noticable on nylon strung guitars, and for appearance only I did use an ebony veneer on my latest gut strung 10-course lute, but I certainly would not use it on any more steel string guitars. I used ebony on 4 or 5 steel string guitars some time ago, but they have all been replaced with Brazilian rosewood, and to my ears certainly improved. Try one, maybe your customers would like it even more.

Our ears are the final judge, but sometimes the left-sided luthery principles of scientific testing should not be ignored through adherence to tradition. So Torres used ebony, would he if he had seen the test results and has anyone replaced one of his ebony boards with a Brazilian or Honduran rosewood to see if there is any improvement?

There's tradition and then there's being stuck in a rut.

You see "It's all about detail", but details all add up.


ColinColin S38559.2568402778

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hey Colin are you in Indonesia? I'm leaving jakarta tomorrow!

Warmest Regards,
Terence

[QUOTE=pakhan] Hey Colin are you in Indonesia? I'm leaving jakarta tomorrow!

Warmest Regards,
Terence[/QUOTE]

More accurately I'm on a seismic survey ship off Sumatra, I'm running full crust depth tomographic surveys of the subduction fault that caused the Tsunami. This forum is costing the UN a fortune in satellite link time!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

So Colin I assume an Ebony body would just thump? I have never built with ebony but have seen some lovely macassar ebony guitars. I have a piece of Indian Ebony that has some nice curl and white sapwood that I've been saving for a 3 or 4 piece back. Is it just gaboon ebony or all ebony that has this damping effect?

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Hey Colin, I'll be in Singapore for the next couple of months. If you put into port there, drop me line and we'll meet up.

Warmest Regards,
Terence
www.goodacoustics.co.uk

[QUOTE=Colin S]   And as far as fingerboards, where admittedly it makes less difference, if you don't need that plain black appearance, why risk any possibility of sound dampening?
Colin[/QUOTE]

Colin,

I read your post with interest. The one assertion you made that I can answer is the use of ebony in fingerboards. That one's simple, it is hard. It holds up better than any other wood in classicals (I cannot speak to its use in steel string guitars).

I am curious about your testing though. When you said it was "the worst", did you mean it had the poorest transmission? If so, did you draw any conclusions as to why? The wood rings like a bell when struck because of its hardness, so its suitability as a bridge material (other than dulling tools) would seem obvious. Your results seem so counter-intuitive that it gives one pause. Do you have any more information? I'm not disputing your claims, btw, I am just curious why this might be.

Regards, Steve Brown

I'm curious. What wood(s) comprise the sound boards of "instuments by Stradivarius and the other great Cremonese builders, as well as the whole raft of great classical guitar builders"?

Bob, I expect some of the builders in this forum including you could make cardboard ring, but I need as much help as possible! From memory, Macassar, D.crassiflora, was pretty much up with the best rosewoods and mahoganies for transmission of the more complex tones. I have a parlour guitar that sits next to my armchair from Macassar/euro, that is "brilliant". Where Gaboon, D. celebrica fell down was on the transmission of more complex harmonics, the very parts of a note that make it "musical", and which a vibrating string produces in bucketfuls. Total volume was there, but with the more complex overtones were muted. This by the way should be even more important with bridges. OK so it's tough and lasts well, so does concrete!

What species is the Indian Ebony? Don't forget there are more than 400 Ebonies

From memory again, I think it was Honduran rosewood that had the purest transmissions. (By the way, we tested three separate samples of each timber)

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Colin S] The worst for sound dampening by far, of the common hardwoods, was ebony. Why anyone would use it for bridges is beyond my comprehension.
[/QUOTE]

Colin,

I think a lot depends of the type of guitars you make - in some cases some dampening may not be a "bad" thing. Stefan Sobell uses ebony bridges on his guitars and has tried using rosewood but found that it ruined the sound of his guitars. Over the years I have played and heard around 20 of his creations and in no case could you describe the guitars as lacking tone, sustain, clarity and projection and given they are the prime choice for such a picky perfectionist as Martin Simpson they get my vote.

Being heavily influenced by his sound, I make my guitars with big arches in the tops and backs and I have had a similar experience using Rosewood bridges, although I use Macassar ebony for my bridges (maybe a bit of a compromise).

Horses for courses and as the Americans say ymmv!

Classsical guitar making I have no experience of, and the impact of ebony may be totally different here.Dave White38559.3493981482

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

It would be great if anyone who has done testing on transmission and damping of wood species would put together a simple table and post it. It is relatively easy to find figures for characteristics like modulus of elasticity (MOE) and density of woods, but I have not seen a table showing acoustic properties.

I wonder where Katalox (Swartzia cubensis) would show up in the table... (it's a very dark plum/charcoal color, close pored, and *rings* like Brazilian RW)

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Colin here is a description I found on the web of East Indian Ebony


Name East Indian Ebony (Diospyrus spp.)
Type Hardwood.
Other Names Also known as Indian ebony, camagon, golden ebony, and other names such as Macassar ebony according to origin.
Sources Grows in Sri Lanka and southern India.
Appearance Straight to irregular grain with a fine, even texture and metallic luster. Heartwood color varies from medium brown to jet black to gray depending on species. Light gray sapwood.
Physical Props Very heavy, hard, strong, and stiff with high shock and decay resistance. Steam-bends reasonably well but wood is brittle.
Working Props Works with difficulty due to hardness. - heartwood has severe blunting effect on cutting edges. Requires pre-drilling to nail or screw. Glues satisfactorily and takes an excellent finish.
Uses Used for luxury furniture, carving, and various turned items including knife and tool handles, billiard cues, and brush backs. Also used for combs, piano keys and other musical instrument parts, inlay, and decorative veneer.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Bob,

Diospyrus spp. means it's just one of the 400+ species of the ebony Genus but it sounds as if it's just a local name for Macassar, in which case I wouldn't build with it if I were you, I'd just parcel all you've got up and send it over to me for exhaustive testing. If you insist on using it keep it for yourself!

Dave, if your using Macassar for your bridges your not compromising your right up there with the Brazilian, Madagasan rosewoods, and a long way from Gaboon.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I have to agree with Colin. I have weighed every bridge I have made for my
steel string guitars over the last fifteen years. My ebony bridges always come
in at about 32-35 grams. Indian Rosewood bridges at about 25 grams.
Brazilian rosewood at about 17-21 grams. Fifteen years of some quantitative
analysis leads me to believe (by hearing the finished products) that tops
vibrate (and transmit the sound) much better with a lighter bridge. If the
client insists then I will make and install an ebony bridge. If not, my guitars
get brazilian rosewood bridges. Sylvan38559.4006597222

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Sylvan
http://www.wellsguitars.com

[QUOTE=Jerry Hossom] I'm curious. What wood(s) comprise the sound boards of "instuments by Stradivarius and the other great Cremonese builders, as well as the whole raft of great classical guitar builders"?[/QUOTE]

Picea abies, European spruce. (although I have heard a rumour that some may have used some P.orientalis, certainly used on some of the eastern european instuments and some lutes, not commercially available as far as I know, but I've got some!)

Colin

Now I really must get to bed, we've got a 36 hour data run in the morning
Colin S38559.4030092593

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Michael,

Yes this is a fantastic forum, one where we can debate issues and disagree without rancour, and with mutual respect. Guitar building isn't a scientific process though I believe that science can be a useful guide in steering us in one direction or another, guitar building is an art and the main arbiters for the success of any art are the senses. In our case as far as I'm concerned 95%+ of that arbiter is my ears, If I ever build a guitar that looks like a dog but sings like an angel I shall die a happy man (metaphorically!) You see It's the sound that matters and we should all use the materials that produce, or nearly produce, the sound we're after, and yes that is a subjective thing. You see we are not so far apart as you think.

By the way a piece of very old ebony that we plundered from a piece of victorian furniture came out much better in the tests than did newer material from luthery suppliers. Maybe as in so much else, the good stuff has all be used up years ago?

I spend the whole of my working life, as a geophysicist, passing sound waves through things and, by interpreting the way the sound travels and reflects, determining the structure and, experimentally, the composition. It is a natural extension of that process that I use when judging the suitability of wood for various tasks.

Jerry asked about the wood that the Cremonese makers used for their tops, the easy answer was of couse P. abies. David Hume however, who has handled an enormous number of these instruments doesn't think they were overly selective! Just used whatever was available. Also, their "magic" varnish was nothing other than the generally available gunk, the passage of time can be the biggest influence in the way an instrument plays. I've got three pre-war Martins, when you look inside them I bet virtually everyone on this forum can make a better job of the fit and finish and would possibly even reject some of the materials used, but they sound great, the seventy years since they were built, is the most important factor rather than the materials or build quality. There's hope for me yet, I've just got to live till I'm 120!

I'm in the middle of a 36hr run of passing sound waves through the Earth's crust, but I use big air guns rather than a tone generator, and a Cray to analyse the data not a scope.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Guitars are art!!
Saying one guitar sounds "better" than another is the same as saying one painting looks better than another!Brad Goodman38560.3866550926

This thread sure does make me realize that there really are a number of ways to achieve great results, because the results are entirely subjective. Brad is spot-on when he says that they are art. Everyone does indeed hear things differently, or at least like different things. I'm rather partial to certain sounds, and others I loathe. To me, whether or not you use an ebony bridge or a BRW bridge may be a decision based on what one hears when the instrument is strung up. Perhaps a specific guitar would be better off with one or the other depending on the build and what the customer likes. I've heard that some folks feel that an ebony bridge favors one end of the sonic spectrum, where a rosewood bridge favors another. Well, then you can put whichever one on there and if you think it has too much of that character, swap the bridge for one of the other material. I know this may sound simplistic, but it sounds like we all agree that what our ear hears is paramount to the success of a project. Perhaps we ought to be spending more time training our ear to hear the differences. Surely it would make us all better builders.

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I've always heard that ebony has high internal damping and just the reverse for BRW. High internal damping will shut down the vibrations and I dunno if that is all that good when you put the damper at the very point where vibrations are coming into the top.

Art or not, I am not sure this really is a subjective evaluation. I like volume and I like complexity in an instrument, and I will wager that most other folks do to. I certainly strive for it in the guitars I make and I believe Mario and Colin are both right: details matter.

Perhaps the fretboard choice should be dictated--to some extent--by what one's philosophy of the neck is. Some like a light, vibrant, lively neck and think that anything otherwise simply kills sound. I like a neck which is rigidly stiff. (Colin--if I could get away with using concrete I would...but the weight issue rears its head.) (Ok, aesthetics, too.) My thinking is that if the neck can be kept from vibrating, or at least slowed a bit, then more power is tranmitted to the bridge. I believe that Steve Klein veneers the back of his pegheads with these same thoughts, to stiffen the neck / peghead unit, and stop it from vibrating.

I guess all this is to say I'm not looking for a sonic contribution from the neck, other than what's been stated. I want it hold the strings rigidly and not squander their energy. So, ebony works just fine in that environment, maybe even better than rosewood. And, as for where the extension attaches to the top, there's precious little effect there. Now as for the bridge, put me in the column with those who think this is of paramount importance. Brazilian!... unless the customer insists otherwise.

Steve

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http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

[QUOTE=highdrawlicks]
And regarding science dictating the direction luthiery, I think back to the ill-fated Gibson Mark Series (if I'm not mistaken was designed by computer whiz Michael Kasha?). Despite all their hype those steel strings were as welcome by the guitar playing (unimaginative?) public as a turd in a punchbowl.
[/QUOTE]

Whoa, hold on there, hoss! The Gibson Mark series was designed by master craftsman Richard Schneider (employed by Gibson as a consultant at the time), incorporating the extensive research on sound transmission by Dr. Michael Kasha (which had little to do with Kasha's facility with computers). Why didn't they work? Well, I've been told by one of Schneider's apprentices at the time (now a respected maker in his own right) that the Kasha system doesn't translate well to production techniques (i.e. "fast and cheap") so Gibson made changes in the design, which messed up what would have been a finely-tuned instrument. The terms "ill-fated" and "Gibson" go well together, but not in the same breath as "science."

Specifically with the Mark series, the way I recall it, is that it involved a double-X bracing pattern, which was very easy to leave way too robust. The double-X is a great way to ensure maximum stiffness -- thus it is an equally great way to stiffen a top too much. Given that this was a production environment in which a maker tends to err on the side of overbuilding rather than underbuilding, it is my thinking that this is what killed the Mark series.

Best,

Michael

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